OT: a debate on US health care

ChemoMan

Hi All and Don in particular

I have asked pbj11 to move this thread to here:

http://cancerforums.net/viewforum.php?f=25

Maybe we can get a few others in on the debate and make it interesting
_________________
Age 53
Diffuse Large B cell Lymphoma
Stage 2a
Finished six cycles of R chop 21 26th May 2008
Officially in remission 9th July 2008
Remission confirmed 1st October 2008
Remission confirmed 17 June 2009
http://cancerforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=9620
RULE NUMBER 1.....Don't Panic
RULE NUMBER 2..... NEVER GIVE UP
RULE NUMBER 3..... Don't forget the first 2 rules

Don

That is good.

I have been responding to citizens of Canada and Austrailia.

Obviously, I am not a Democrat; but I did not like the fiscal policies and expansion of US Government under George Bush. They were reckless and brought us back to deficit spending.

Bill Clinton, with his sound fiscal policies, brought this country back into the "black" with a surplus.
_________________
Don B
Dec 07 Dx Follicular NHL, Grade I (Indolent)
Stage IIIA - No Symptoms
Watch and Wait - 6 Month Checks
Jan 09 Scan shows Progression - no symptoms
May 18, 09 - Started R-CVP
After Third Round, CT scan showed some tumor shrinkage
July 31,09 - Completed 6 Rounds R-CVP

joepet · Senior User Joined: 18 Dec 2008 Posts: 371 Location: Japan

Actually, I am a US citizen, and a resident of Japan. Razz

_________________
Age 37 (36 at diagnosis)
Diffuse Large B cell Lymphoma
Stage 1AE (localized in colon)
Began six cycles of R chop 21 3rd Dec 2008
Finished R chop 21 Apr 2009
Complete remission as of May 2009

Don

AH!!! ChemoMan...the US is NOT a Democracy, but a Republic. Go to one of my previous posts and watch the video on the link I provided. It is very informative.

Anyway...yes, I have whined about the politics of this country but I used that as a preface to the fact that we cannot afford more fiscally open-ended government programs. If we are going to make adjustments to our health care accessability policies, then we really need to think them through. Otherwise, we are going to have untenable economic events, on top of more such events brought on by the collapses of Social Security and Medicare...that we KNOW are coming. Again, I am talking about the unique situation in the US...not in other countries

Now...don't get me wrong...I do believe that it is in our best interest to make access to health care available to everyone.

With that in mind, I would add that currently there is a feeling the Federal Government has to be "all things to all people". That the Feds will solve all our problems, eliminate all our debts, make all corporations solvent, "wipe every tear from our eye - so to speak", etc, etc. It was not always like this. Here is a brief "history" of the evolution of "Big Government" (President then Program) - note that there are Republicans in the list:

T. Roosevelt - National involvement in business

F.D. Roosevelt - Social Security

Johnson - Great Society Programs (Medicare, welfare)

Clinton - Begins forcing mortgage lenders to make loans to unqualified buyers backed by US Government. To his credit, Clinton reformed welfare and reduced the deficit

G "W" Bush - continues reckless lending (credit crisis precipitates), No Child Left Behind Act, Senior Prescription Drug Benefit - runs country back into deficit spending

Obama - government take overs of banking and auto industries, extreme deficit spending, proposing National Health Care, CAFE standards, etc.

To summarize: The US Government is TOO big and has become involved in every aspect of our lives. Obama has proposed taking the growth rate to the extreme, which has caused alarm in moderates and conservatives. Our deficits CANNOT be sustained; even Obama said this a few weeks ago and yet he continues to spend.

There HAS to be a major "correction" in this country or we are going to "go down in flames".
_________________
Don B
Dec 07 Dx Follicular NHL, Grade I (Indolent)
Stage IIIA - No Symptoms
Watch and Wait - 6 Month Checks
Jan 09 Scan shows Progression - no symptoms
May 18, 09 - Started R-CVP
After Third Round, CT scan showed some tumor shrinkage
July 31,09 - Completed 6 Rounds R-CVP

ChemoMan

Hi Don

I watched the vid you posted and found it intersting, but I did not agree with the concepts of it. The historical references to failed democracy were inaccurate and the reason for Rome's demise were just plain wrong. I considered it a fanciful semantic argument. I prefer to think of the system envisaged by your founding fathers as a democratic republic Smile

Looking from the outside I would say the that US has had a ruling elite for a very long time and if you think you have a "republic" in the sense that was portrayed in that film then you are deluding yourselves. But hey thats just my opinion, one that you can feel free to divest me of.

Cheers
_________________
Age 53
Diffuse Large B cell Lymphoma
Stage 2a
Finished six cycles of R chop 21 26th May 2008
Officially in remission 9th July 2008
Remission confirmed 1st October 2008
Remission confirmed 17 June 2009
http://cancerforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=9620
RULE NUMBER 1.....Don't Panic
RULE NUMBER 2..... NEVER GIVE UP
RULE NUMBER 3..... Don't forget the first 2 rules

Don

I concur, ChemoMan!! Why do you think I am a frustrated conservative? Even our conservative party is liberal...they offer NO alternative.
_________________
Don B
Dec 07 Dx Follicular NHL, Grade I (Indolent)
Stage IIIA - No Symptoms
Watch and Wait - 6 Month Checks
Jan 09 Scan shows Progression - no symptoms
May 18, 09 - Started R-CVP
After Third Round, CT scan showed some tumor shrinkage
July 31,09 - Completed 6 Rounds R-CVP

bjr229 · New User Joined: 03 Jun 2009 Posts: 1

[quote="SingleDad"]

The idea that if the United States joins the rest of developed nations and finally adopts a universal health care system it will bankrupt itself is not based in reality.

The reality is that the US spends a larger proportion of its Gross Domestic Product (GDP) than any other developed nation. By far. Not even close.

CDC has just documented it from data collected by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) in its 2008 health data yearbook (statistics and indicators for 30 countries).

>>>>It suggests we are being bankrupted by our lack of a universal health care system:<<<<

more

http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/2009/04/lack_of_universal_health_care.php[/quote]

Very interesting, but incomplete analysis. The US already has a single payer system for those over 65yrs. It is Medicare. Last I checked, it is nearly broke, and the unfunded liability is likely to drive the entire country to insolvency. How will expanding it to the rest of the population help with it's finances?

Brian

ChemoMan · Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:52 am Post subject: The coming storm

Hi

Things are about to get very much worse for all of us.... just when I thought things were turning Embarassed

http://www.vdare.com/roberts/090603_storm.htm

The article was written by Paul Craig Roberts Assistant secretary of state for the Reagan administration...its scary stuff

While you are there you might want to read his other articles, I have been reading his blogs for a while and find his general prognostications accurate.

Although Paul is not a lefty by any means he was definately no fan of GW as a read of his earlier articles will reveal... He is also not a fan of Obama so we can assume he has his own opinions.

Cheers
_________________
Age 53
Diffuse Large B cell Lymphoma
Stage 2a
Finished six cycles of R chop 21 26th May 2008
Officially in remission 9th July 2008
Remission confirmed 1st October 2008
Remission confirmed 17 June 2009
http://cancerforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=9620
RULE NUMBER 1.....Don't Panic
RULE NUMBER 2..... NEVER GIVE UP
RULE NUMBER 3..... Don't forget the first 2 rules

Don

Yes, I remember Paul Craig Roberts. I will try to delve into his readings; although I get "buggy-eyed" when read economics...eventhough I was (and still am on a substitute basis) a math teacher.

Although I am a conservative, I did not like Bush because of his expansionist policies.
_________________
Don B
Dec 07 Dx Follicular NHL, Grade I (Indolent)
Stage IIIA - No Symptoms
Watch and Wait - 6 Month Checks
Jan 09 Scan shows Progression - no symptoms
May 18, 09 - Started R-CVP
After Third Round, CT scan showed some tumor shrinkage
July 31,09 - Completed 6 Rounds R-CVP

Don

ChemoMan, I did delve into the article and it made sense. Unfortunately for us, we have an Administration with unprecidented hubris led by a President that is extremely narcissistic (why did he himself, announce the car manufacturer deals?). They are totally ignoring all of these economic signs which portend disaster.

Even if National Health Insurance was a good ideal right now, we can't afford it...yet, he is pushing for it; AND, because Congress and the media are in awe of him, we are probably going to get it.

Do you wonder why I am scared for our country?
_________________
Don B
Dec 07 Dx Follicular NHL, Grade I (Indolent)
Stage IIIA - No Symptoms
Watch and Wait - 6 Month Checks
Jan 09 Scan shows Progression - no symptoms
May 18, 09 - Started R-CVP
After Third Round, CT scan showed some tumor shrinkage
July 31,09 - Completed 6 Rounds R-CVP

Don

As I sat down with my cup of coffee, with my gas producing lab at my feet (can anyone tell me how to fix that?) to read the paper...I came upon this Headline: "Escalating Debt Threatens Recovery, Fed Chief Warns."

The article is about Ben Bernanke warning that increasing debt will increase mortage rates and discourage investors thus threatening our economy. Some quotes:

"...investors are troubled by the projected increase in the debt...the highest since the aftermath of WWII...with little indication the debt won't keep rising unsustainably after that as Congress piles on plans for massive spending on HEALTH CARE, energy and other areas."

"We will have neither financial stability nor healthy economic growth unless Congress and the administration take steps now to address the imbalances in Social Security and Medicare and demonstate a strong committment to fiscal sustainability in the longer term." he said.

This parallels and augments the article you posted by Paul Craig Roberts, ChemoMan.

Scary!! That is why I predict a major readjustment is going to take place, probably electorially.
_________________
Don B
Dec 07 Dx Follicular NHL, Grade I (Indolent)
Stage IIIA - No Symptoms
Watch and Wait - 6 Month Checks
Jan 09 Scan shows Progression - no symptoms
May 18, 09 - Started R-CVP
After Third Round, CT scan showed some tumor shrinkage
July 31,09 - Completed 6 Rounds R-CVP

Don · Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:19 am Post subject: More about our Financial Crisis

Let me add a few more quotes from the newspaper about our financial woes:

From a related article that I mention in my last post:

"The Treasury is issuing debt and the central bank is buying it", a high ranking congressman said, "It gives me the alarming impression that the US one day might begin to meet its financial obligations by simply printing money."

But Mr. Bernanke adamantly denied that would happen. "The Federal Reserve will not monetize the debt," he said, "Either CUTS IN SPENDING or (now, get this) INCREASES IN TAXES will be necessary to stabilize the fiscal situation.

Does anyone want to bet which of the two is more likely to happen?

In an editorial about the increasing deficit:

In talking about the need to fix Social Security and Medicare, the editorial quotes Secretary Geithner: "...the longer we wait to address the long term solvency of Medicare and Social Security, the sooner those challenges will be upon us and the harder the options will be."

Then the editorial quotes President Obama: "What we have done is kicked this can down the road...we are now at the end of the road and are not in a position to kick it any further."

Then the editorial concludes: The President and congressional Democrats are proceeding with still undefined health care reforms. We're afraid to ask how much that will cost.
_________________
Don B
Dec 07 Dx Follicular NHL, Grade I (Indolent)
Stage IIIA - No Symptoms
Watch and Wait - 6 Month Checks
Jan 09 Scan shows Progression - no symptoms
May 18, 09 - Started R-CVP
After Third Round, CT scan showed some tumor shrinkage
July 31,09 - Completed 6 Rounds R-CVP

pbj11 · Site Admin Joined: 12 May 2007 Posts: 2851

Random thoughts...

I'm not quite jumping head first into this particular discussion as I haven't adequately reviewed all of the posts. I will make the comment that I've been involved in the world of cancer for over four years now and have had many, many contacts with people in socialized medicine countries.

I find their stories heartbreaking. In fairness to the concept of confidentiality, even though these ARE public forums, I'd like to generically note a recent post. This person is in the UK and has a loved one that clearly went from limited cancer to advanced incurable cancer due to the wait times of socialized medicine in their country. I found myself unable to even respond as I KNEW what had happened and that this loved one went from potentially curable to a death sentence. I don't know what was greater after reading this particular post -- my tears or my anger. To have restricted access and rationing is not in ANYONE'S best interest. Cancer has been the fuel to my passion on how this affects people's lives in many other countries. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen standard treatments or tests not offered. This is the basis that I have formulated my concerns on re: universal health care. (I'm also a frustrated conservative living in exile in my own country.)

I don't have the answers on how to fix the health care system in the U.S. but think that Tort Reform is probably a good place to start. This would drive down the costs of insurance for everyone making it more accessible. What are the odds of a group of lawyers in congress passing these types of laws that would impact their brethren? Probably minuscule.

To think that the changes being touted by the current administration and congress will only impact the 40 million who are uninsured (including illegal aliens) is naive. Medicare Part D is a prime example of the net effect of a government program. Many companies provided prescription benefits for senior retirees before the institution of Part D prescription coverage via the government. Once this was instituted, most companies dropped their plans in favor of less expensive prescription options. Senior retirees were left with no alternative but to pick up Part D. This will be the SAME thing that will happen with regular health care coverage if the federal government gets into the health care for all business. Those who currently have good coverage will be tossed into the government pool because it will be a cheaper option for companies. It will be a total domino effect. This is very troubling. I'm also concerned about the looming taxation of our current health care benefits and a V.A.T. tax for everyone. We only have to look at taxes in places like the U.K., France, and Germany to see how costly this will be at a time we cannot afford to make a move this extreme.

Universal/socialized/etc. health care hasn't been cutting it in countries much smaller than ours, so why do we think it's a good thing for us? (Oddly enough, Australia is the ONLY place I've never heard complaints from about their system. Why?)

I agree that something needs to be done and I hope far more consideration will go into alternatives here than have been given to some of the other insane things that have been going on the past few months.

PBJ
_________________
Husband diagnosed with NSCLC Stage IV. (Non-Small Cell Lung Cancer) Fought & lived 2 1/2 years with multiple lines of treatment.

Post describing our battle: http://cancerforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=7026&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Don

pbj11,

Your comments express my sentiments EXACTLY!

I remember my grandmother being FURIOUS when she was forced to give up the health insurance that she had relied on for decades and go on Medicare. She couldn't believe that the US Government had gotten so dictatorial and was giving her NO choice, WHICH IS WRONG!

She ultimately died of colon cancer.

Tort reform? Come on...the Trial Lawyers Association give to the same political party as the Unions. You won't see tort reform for the next four years, at least.

Taxes!! I am amazed at what they are thinking of taxing next; it is mind boggling.

Like you pbj11, I am a frustrated conservative and I found out this week that I have to be careful when taking the prednisone for my R-CVP regemin and watching Fox News at the same time. I almost threw a bottle of gator aid through the TV set when my Congressman came on; but I think he could hear me yelling at him. Unfortunately, my granddaughter learned some new words.

I have heard that many of the European countries and Canada are starting to move away from their brand of socialism and health care...but I am not aware of the extent.
_________________
Don B
Dec 07 Dx Follicular NHL, Grade I (Indolent)
Stage IIIA - No Symptoms
Watch and Wait - 6 Month Checks
Jan 09 Scan shows Progression - no symptoms
May 18, 09 - Started R-CVP
After Third Round, CT scan showed some tumor shrinkage
July 31,09 - Completed 6 Rounds R-CVP

pbj11 · Site Admin Joined: 12 May 2007 Posts: 2851

Hi Don,

You said: "Like you pbj11, I am a frustrated conservative and I found out this week that I have to be careful when taking the prednisone for my R-CVP regemin and watching Fox News at the same time. I almost threw a bottle of gator aid through the TV set when my Congressman came on; but I think he could hear me yelling at him. Unfortunately, my granddaughter learned some new words."

LOL It could be worse Don -- your congressman can't be as bad as my scenario. My former jr. senator is now the president. Rolling Eyes

You be careful now -- you don't want to blow a gasket. I can only take measured doses of news lately.

We personally were VERY fortunate and had a fabulous Oncologist who knew the in's and out's of how to do things and get them approved by Medicare. We also had extraordinary supplemental coverage -- earned by my husband's 35 years at one company. A review of his treatment easily tells a far different tale than would be told in many other countries. (Caveat: Nothing I'm saying is meant as a knock to those countries or people in the least -- just about the health care and tax system. Shocked

) Canada is a province by province system. Good some places, not so much in others. A treatment my husband was receiving three years ago has only recently been approved in England after a valiant fight by private citizen's lobbying efforts. I'm underwhelmed, disheartened, and downright angry by what I've gleaned from my contacts with cancer patients in these countries.

I know health care gaps are an extraordinary problem, but I think there could be options that are not being explored. One of my adult kids, an über-liberal, even acknowledges the pitfalls of socialized medicine as he grasps the difference between being treated for something relatively mundane vs. cancer care, due to his experience with his father.

Re: Tort reform. I said the chances of that happening were minuscule. I'm thinking if our president and congress can go to the extremes that I'm currently seeing, this idea should certainly be on the table. I'm sure we'll have something half-baked shoved down our throats in a hasty manner the same as has been done for some time now.

When people wake up and realize that the politicians are not working for the good of the nation but for their own re-election prospects, then maybe things can change for the better. Another novel idea would be term-limits. LOL Wink

I'm also aware that some of these countries are sending warnings to the U.S. about directions we are heading. We seem to be one-step behind the direction they are moving since they've learned from experience.

I look forward to more discussion on this very crucial issue for our Nation. The best thing to do is to write your congress people regardless of your perspective to express your opinions. Not that it amounts to a hill o' beans, but I have to assert that right to live with myself.

PBJ
_________________
Husband diagnosed with NSCLC Stage IV. (Non-Small Cell Lung Cancer) Fought & lived 2 1/2 years with multiple lines of treatment.

Post describing our battle: http://cancerforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=7026&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

	Cancer Forums Forum Index -> Financial issues	All times are GMT - 5 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
Page 2 of 4

A website for discussions about any type of cancer, including lung cancer, breast cancer, prostate cancer, laryngeal cancer, leukemia, lymphoma, multiple myeloma and others