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Thread: OT: Heart issues and Diet

  1. #1

    OT: Heart issues and Diet

    Hope its ok, to post this here, not many other places that are active to discuss this. And we've discussed it before i know there are a few active posters that are quite knowledgeable on the issue.

    Diagnosed with heavy plauqe load in June, Calcium score 937, 3 blockages, 2 stents (one blockage was small)
    3 Cardiologists, one being my Primary Care Physician, all say "your fine, relax, go home, take these pills, see me in 4 months". I want to be more proactive than that. I know its very difficult to reverse CAD, but i want to stop the progression, or at least try.

    I have been reading Dr Dean Ornish, he has studies published showing reversal, his approach is diet, exercise, stress reduction. His diet is all about LOW FAT, carbs not as important, as long as its complex carbs, not simple (refined)

    Then i learn about Dr William Davis, he too has studies (i havent seen them first hand) and his approach is, fat is no big deal, VERY LOW CARBS is the key. He has a website, with a forum, and there are guys there who say they have stopped progression on the low carb diet. A doctor was mentioned on that forum, who is a Cardiologist but also the Chief of Integrative Medicine, at NYU Langone Medical Center in NYC. I went to see him last week.

    His approach is similar to Ornish, diet, exercise, stress relief, etc. BUT - BIG BUT - he does not believe in Ornish dietary approach - he is all about low carb. But not to extremes. He asked me to see a Psychologist he works with for biofeedback for stress relief, and gave me a nutritionist to see. Most important he took blood to be sent to Boston Heart Diagnostics, a lab that does specialized tests - advanced lipid tests - beyond the normal ones that every Dr Does. Things like particle size of ldl and hdl, etc. He says this will tell him things like, what meds and what foods i am resistant to, where my cholesterol is coming from (dietary vs produced by the body) and will help him tailor a program personalized to me.

    All this makes sense, but its still confusing. I've read all these different opninions, all from recognized experts.

    Anybody have any experience with this, or knowledge of this> CARBS vs FATS, Boston Heart Diagnostics, this Doctors approach?

    Again, i know this is a pc forum, i'm hoping its ok to post, i need to find some impartial opinions, or better yet, experiences.
    Diagnosed at age 64 (in November, 2014), PSA 4.3
    Nov 2014 BX 3 of 12 cores positive original pathology G8. Johns Hopkins second opinion, G6
    Surgery with Dr Ash Tewari Jan 6, 2015
    Post surgical pathology, stage T2c, bilateral disease, upstaged to G7(3+4)
    5% of Prostate involved in Tumor. Organ confined, Margins, SV, lymph nodes (9) all negative, PNI positive
    PSA <.02 until (uh-oh), 2/17 .02. Then 5/17-.033, 8/17-.033, 11/17-.046, 4/18-.060, 6/18-.068, 7/18- .082, 8/18-. 078.
    Decipher score low risk, .37
    ADT/Firmagon started August 2018. SRT to start SEPT 2018. Finished SRT November 2018, Finished ADT Feb 2019
    T=7, PSA <.05

  2. #2
    Hi Prato! The "Fat Issues" Pandora's Box was opened on The Forum and then quickly locked down back in Dec. (Titled "Diet changes / diet recommendations")

    I applaud you for taking your health seriously and taking actions to maintain good heatlh through healthy lifestyles. Interventional Cardiac measures such as stents simply relieve symptoms. They do not no cure the underlying disease processes and these continue UNLESS the patient takes 'interventional' action and minimizes the causes through lifestyle modifications.

    I've watched all of the PBS programs on dietary changes and lifestyle modifications and have read several of the publications of featured MDs. It gets so damn confusing because often the advice given by one MD program gets countered by advice of another MD on a different program. Naturally, they are all trying to sell a product and get you to spend some money! Not a problem if one spends wisely!

    I've paid attention to Drs Fuhrman, Hyman and Davis. (Dr Davis' appearance concerned me as I watched his "Wheat Belly" program. He looked in need of loosing weight and in not in very good physical condition.)

    Simply put: Back in the late 70's and into the 80's the Medical Establishment declared War on Fat. Turns out they got it all wrong!!!

    Google Mark Hyman, MD and he explains this in a recent 10 minute video.

    Prior to that time, the food industry (which thankfully exists) did a dramatic disservice to all. In the Fat Department, they took healthy fats and "hydrogenated" them thus converting them to "saturated" fats which could be stored as liquids in your pantry. Thus the "Trans Fats" are now the enemy. Remember when we were told that "Butter is Bad but Margarine is Good?" Well it turnas out that Butter is Bad BUT Margarine is a Disaster!

    So when it comes to fat, stay away from the "Industrial Fats" and minimize intake of animal fats. These are implicated in raising LDL levels which in turn contribute to plaque formation. Definitely, consume plant fats especially those that contain "essential fatty acids" (linoleic and oleic).

    Remember that the preferred fuel of the Cardiac Muscle are fatty acids (components of a fat molecule) and NOT glucose!

    Today's thinking is that Fats (plant based) are healthy. Carbohydrate: sugars and starches are BAD. The food industry adds some form of sugar to nearly everything. To make matters worse they invented "high fructose corn syrup" (HFCS). It must be cheaper than cane sugar (sucrose) because it's usage has skyrocketed. While I'm not privileged to know the secret formula for Coca Cola, I suspect that 30 years ago when "New Coke" was introduced, it was reformulated using HFCS as a way to save manufacturing costs and make more $ over time. As Donald Trump would say: "It was a Disaster!"

    Think about it. The human body is incredibly efficient at storing energy in the form of fat ( 9 Cal/gm ) The human body is fairly inefficient at storing energy in the form of glucose ( 4 Cal/gm ). Glucose requires H2O to be stored and thus adding weight; whereas fat requires no water for storage.

    Re Checking Cholesterol: Dr Hyman recommends the "Particle Size Test"

    - LabCorp = NMR Lipid Panel
    - Quest = Cardio IQ Test

    I remain skeptical that there is a "Perfect Diet." Thus the dietary advice that we adhere to is: Eat a strict diet of 80% "healthy foods," 80% of the time. My wife and I eat strictly healthy vegetarian during the week and refrain from ETOH. Then.... relax the rules a bit on weekends!!!

    Last Item is Exercise: Essential for one's overall well being! Follow your MDs guidelines. Not only are there amazing physical benefits from exercise, but there are tremendous psychological benefits in terms of reducing and managing stress and overall feeling great!

    Best wishes for continued health!

    MF
    Last edited by Michael F; 02-16-2016 at 02:06 AM.
    PSA: Oct '09 = 1.91, Oct '11 = 2.79, Dec '11 = 2.98 (PSA, Free = 0.39ng/ml, % PSA Free = 13%)
    Referred to URO MD
    Jan '12: DRE = Positive: "Left induration"
    Jan '12: Biopsy = 6 of 12 Cores were Positive: 1 = Gleason 7 (3+4) and 5 = Gleason 6
    Referred to URO Surgeon
    March '12: Robotic RP: Left Positive Margins + EPEs. MD waited in surgery for preliminary Path Report then excised substantial left adjacent tissue(s) down to negative margins and placed 2 Ti clips for SR guidance, if needed in future.
    Pathology: Gleason (3+4) pT3a pNO pMX pRO / Prostate Size = 32 grams; Tumor = Bilateral; 20% / Perineural invasion: present
    3 month Post Op standard PSA = <0.1 ng/ml
    1st uPSA at 7 months Post Op = 0.018 ng/ml
    uPSA remains "stable" at 84 Months Post Op: Mean = 0.021 (20x uPSAs: Range 0.017 - 0.026) LabCorp: Ultrasensitive PSA: Roche ECLIA
    Continence = Very Good (≥ 99%)
    ED = present

  3. #3
    Michael F gave a great response. Here's mine. Mind you this isn't advice, it's just what I do.

    Have three blockages. Got one of them stented in 2004. I don't get all wound up about what I eat, but I do avoid very fatty foods, fried foods, fast foods, etc. That doesn't mean I won't stop at a McDonalds occasionally. When I have pizza at home it's homemade with turkey pepperoni. Only eat restaurant pizza when I travel. Don't concern myself with salt intake. Drink beer on Saturday. Have an occasional cigar. Exercise. Exercise. And take the Lipitor.

    I've had many nuclear stress tests over the past 11-12 years, they all look good.

    I know I should be more concerned, but heck man there's more to living than living.
    Prostate Cancer:
    Age 55 at Dx
    PSA 1.34 10/08
    PSA 1.93 04/10
    PSA 4.1 10/11, Free PSA 20%
    Biopsy 12/11 - One core 40%, rest negative, T1c, Gleason 3+3, Some PNI, Prostate 47.4g, PSA Density .086
    RALP City of Hope/Dr. Wilson 2/15/12. Pathology: Prostate 52 grams, 20% total involvement (bilateral), N0MX,
    T2c, Gleason 3+3, margins clear.
    PSA continues to be undetectable as of Dec 2017.
    Squamous Cell Carcinoma:
    One small area removed from left eyebrow by MOHS Jan 2018.

  4. #4
    Senior User
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    181
    Prato, Take a look at Mark Hyman - he has great material on this subject. Fat is not bad and is not the problem - HOWEVER, this depends on your fat sources. Good fat from nuts, avocado's etc...is excellent. Fat helps you feel full and satisfied and is not the converter to sugar that Carbs are. Much more could be said but I will leave it at that for now.
    Steve
    DOB 8/30/56
    Post Op 9 week PSA 0.01
    December 16 Final Pathology Report Johns Hopkins
    Gleason score dominant nodule 4+5=9
    Gleason score secondary nodule 3+4=7
    Extraprostatic extension present
    Seminal vesicle invasion - None
    Lymphatic Invasion - Absent
    Primary Tumor pT3a
    Prostate weight 33.7 grams
    Summed length of positive margin 3mm - highest grade at point of margin 4+4=8
    Area directly adjacent to harvested core comes within <0.1cm of the nearest inked black capsule

    December 9 - Johns Hopkins Robotic RP - Dr. Mohammad Allaf
    October - Johns Hopkins upgrades 4+4 to 4+5+9

    September Biopsy 5/13 positive; Gleason 4+3, 3+4, 4+3, 4+3, 4+4.
    March 2015 PSA 3.1

    2011 PSA 1.9; 2013 PSA 3.7, 8/2014 PSA 3.3, 9/2014 PSA 2.9 -
    abnormal DRE 9/2014
    Biopsy 1!/2014 - Results 3/12 cores positive; all 3 cores Gleason 3+3, (right apex lateral <5%, left apex medial 25%, left mid lateral 10%

  5. #5
    Thanks for the responses guys.
    First, in a preemptive effort to avoid getting this thread locked down, i have to say, and believe, that a good diet for Heart issues, is a healthy diet, which by definition, can only be helpful to cancer patients in general. We all know that Prostate Cancer has been indicated to be connected at least in some ways, to diet.

    With that said....

    Thanks guys for the responses.
    Michael, great info. I did know a lot of the information already, but you are confirming my feeling. And for that reason, i am feeling like what the Dr i saw last week laid out for me, his approach to advanced lipid testing being used to guide me to a more personalized program, makes more and more sense to me.
    ThatBiopsyHurt, what you describe is similar to what i have been doing, although not quite the same. I relax a bit on the weekend. But i dont do McDonalds, lol, or anything similar, I'm trying to be very careful on what i put in my mouth. With a high calcium score that i have, i feel like i dont have a ton of margin for error. Last night i went out to dinner, had a small piece of bread, no butter, arugula salad, veal sorrentino, asked for spinach instead of pasta and had 2 forkfuls of my wifes pasta. then had one bite of wifes Tartufo for dessert with some fresh fruit. Thats my NEW version of going off the rails on the weekend. What i used to do was much worse.

    Trinity, thanks for your response. You and Michael mentioning Dr Hyman - are the second and third times i've had his name mentioned to me, so i guess its time to head over to his website and do some reading.

    Where i stand now, is no symptoms, feel good, walking minimum 30 minutes, (longer on weekends) a day, 5-6 days a week. On Crestor 10 MG (low dose) and a bunch of other meds. My ldl is down to 42, my total cholesterol is 102, but my HDL is 30 (too low) and Triglycerides 208 (too high). I am pretty sure i have a bad, high number of small particle ldl, i was tested about 5 years ago and that was the case.
    So i will wait to get the new test results and see what they say, and what plan of action this new Cardiologist comes up with.

    BTW, i'm realizing that i have a feeling these specialized blood tests are not covered by Medicare, which means i could be out of pocket to the tune of $1500-2000. If this approach is real, and valid, then i guess its worth it. Still, i'm a little annoyed that the Dr didnt mention that to me. I have to call the lab tomorrow to confirm that there is no coverage.
    Diagnosed at age 64 (in November, 2014), PSA 4.3
    Nov 2014 BX 3 of 12 cores positive original pathology G8. Johns Hopkins second opinion, G6
    Surgery with Dr Ash Tewari Jan 6, 2015
    Post surgical pathology, stage T2c, bilateral disease, upstaged to G7(3+4)
    5% of Prostate involved in Tumor. Organ confined, Margins, SV, lymph nodes (9) all negative, PNI positive
    PSA <.02 until (uh-oh), 2/17 .02. Then 5/17-.033, 8/17-.033, 11/17-.046, 4/18-.060, 6/18-.068, 7/18- .082, 8/18-. 078.
    Decipher score low risk, .37
    ADT/Firmagon started August 2018. SRT to start SEPT 2018. Finished SRT November 2018, Finished ADT Feb 2019
    T=7, PSA <.05

  6. #6
    Thanks Prato for bringing up the reimbursement issue for Particle Size Testing. Prior to my annual physical, I'm calling my insurer and ask about coverage before requesting the test!

    Currently, the standard Lipid, cholesterol, triglyceride panel does not directly measure LDL (or any sub fractions). The LDL number is simply calculated from the Total & HDL measurements.

    It appears the "bad news" isn't simply the amount of circulating LDL, but what 'types' of LDL are circulating.

    Guessing this is analogous to standard PSA testing evolving to Ultrasensitive PSA technology.

    Good luck & good health!

    MF
    PSA: Oct '09 = 1.91, Oct '11 = 2.79, Dec '11 = 2.98 (PSA, Free = 0.39ng/ml, % PSA Free = 13%)
    Referred to URO MD
    Jan '12: DRE = Positive: "Left induration"
    Jan '12: Biopsy = 6 of 12 Cores were Positive: 1 = Gleason 7 (3+4) and 5 = Gleason 6
    Referred to URO Surgeon
    March '12: Robotic RP: Left Positive Margins + EPEs. MD waited in surgery for preliminary Path Report then excised substantial left adjacent tissue(s) down to negative margins and placed 2 Ti clips for SR guidance, if needed in future.
    Pathology: Gleason (3+4) pT3a pNO pMX pRO / Prostate Size = 32 grams; Tumor = Bilateral; 20% / Perineural invasion: present
    3 month Post Op standard PSA = <0.1 ng/ml
    1st uPSA at 7 months Post Op = 0.018 ng/ml
    uPSA remains "stable" at 84 Months Post Op: Mean = 0.021 (20x uPSAs: Range 0.017 - 0.026) LabCorp: Ultrasensitive PSA: Roche ECLIA
    Continence = Very Good (≥ 99%)
    ED = present

  7. #7
    Michael, yes, this is what I read. LDL is an indirect test, a calculation inferred from other numbers.
    And if you have too much small particle ldl, it's particularly high risk. Wheat free grain fee diets are supposed to help.

    I think regardless of reimbursement, if the test results give birth to better more precise and individualized treatments, it's worth it in my opinion, at least to the extent that the money is available
    Diagnosed at age 64 (in November, 2014), PSA 4.3
    Nov 2014 BX 3 of 12 cores positive original pathology G8. Johns Hopkins second opinion, G6
    Surgery with Dr Ash Tewari Jan 6, 2015
    Post surgical pathology, stage T2c, bilateral disease, upstaged to G7(3+4)
    5% of Prostate involved in Tumor. Organ confined, Margins, SV, lymph nodes (9) all negative, PNI positive
    PSA <.02 until (uh-oh), 2/17 .02. Then 5/17-.033, 8/17-.033, 11/17-.046, 4/18-.060, 6/18-.068, 7/18- .082, 8/18-. 078.
    Decipher score low risk, .37
    ADT/Firmagon started August 2018. SRT to start SEPT 2018. Finished SRT November 2018, Finished ADT Feb 2019
    T=7, PSA <.05

  8. #8
    I am by nature skeptical of almost everything I read. I have been this way for a long time, but with the advent of the internet I am ever more skeptical.
    Completely wrong views and ideas can travel quickly and be presented in very professional manners...giving them credibility when they deserve little.
    Often times wrong views can be put forth by well meaning, well credentialed, professionals.
    For them and everyone, it is so easy now to find information and views that corroborate what you either believe or want to believe. This is made all the stronger when
    one makes their money by believing that what they say is true.
    Clearly everyone can't be right. Top notch professionals with views that almost completely contradict each other.
    Now backed up by armies of citizens who become so invested in their new belief being the true answer. And they are so well supplied with hundreds of forums, anecdotes, lay articles written by non doctors, and TV programs on PBS. Medical media and the "correct way to eat".. has almost become the new religion,, about which people are willing to debate about and fight about, almost as fervently as the Shiites and Sunnis do over which is the true version of Islam.

    I of course, have no guaranteed reliable path to what is best. I try to do my best but I would change tomorrow if only someone would show me some real evidence that refutes or counters what I currently have come to accept as having the best probability of providing me with the best chance to halt coronary artery disease.
    So with that self minimizing of my expertise, or self assurance of being absolutely right, I'd like to comment on a few items in this thread.

    I have seen and re-seen... and re-viewed ALL the PBS station diet gurus who come through on a regular basis. I watch them over and over, listen to their theories and then try to explore the basis of their paths by looking up the studies..or lack of studies, that they tout. Some of them I have seen a dozen or more times as they come back with a new lecture...promoting yet another book...and always raising money for the local public TV station. I also look at the less than perfect Youtube presentations they make where they talk in ways that aren't perfectly honed as we see in the PBS infomercial type talks.
    These videos often reveal a lesser degree of certainty then they put forth in the PBS shows and in their edited books.
    Often they turn out to not be as absolute in their "black and white" description of why their way is best and the others are flawed.

    So with my uncertainty, I'd still like to comment on a few items.

    1. --- "Back in the late 70's and into the 80's, the Medical Establishment declared War on Fat. Turns out they got it all wrong!!! "--

    This is the new theme of the last few years. Even made the cover of Time... on several issues. One showing butter.. The Big Fat Surprise: Nina Teicholz edition..(who by the way has zero medical credentials... and a more recent Time cover with bacon as the center piece.

    This issue of "turns out they got is all wrong" is so misleading.. Now it is all you hear. And apparently people believe it without exploring the truth any further. Then they extrapolate it to heart disease and even to existing CAD patients.
    What is unstated... is that how the "low-fat" original message was given and how it was carried out by business and the public... have nothing to do with how it is now being derided.
    BTW, I'm not saying low-fat is the path for everyone. However when America went on the "low-fat" advice, the reality is that they kept eating almost as much fat as ever. Yes, as a percentage of calories, fat was reduced, BUT they added so many new calories of non-fat and low-fat grains and sugars that they could have a lower percentage fats without eating hardly any less fat.
    AT the very best in what is called the "low fat" experiment that America went through, they may have lowered their fat intake from around 37 to 40 percent fat, down to about 35 percent.
    Never, ever, in any year did they even get as low as 33% fat.
    Thus the entire idea that "low-fat" was completely wrong is largely a myth, because almost no one went on a true low fat diet.

    Just to put it in perspective, even the "aim" of the low-fat diet era was only 30%, which they never came close to... while the heart disease prevention "low fat" diets of Ornish and Esselstyn are both aimed at 10% or less.. and indeed, in the Ornish study, the participants, after 5 years were still at 8.4% of calories from fat.
    So any discussion of failure of low fat eating, as it regards heart patients, based on what the general public did the past 30 years is just absurd.

    2. Regarding Dr. Hyman having it all figured out. I would really like a link to the study or studies that he relies on showing how patients who already have CAD (coronary artery disease) do on his diet.
    There are thousands of studies. I have become skeptical of almost all of them...though I try to read anything related.
    But if he could just give me one where a group of 20 or 50 or 200 individuals with CAD... follow his recommended diet for 3 to 5 years and showed halting or reversal, then I would be impressed.
    I need outcomes, not just some short term improvement of markers. I also don't just want more of all those studies of people who happened to do such and such in their diet and as a group had 35% less heart disease... I mean I've read those types of studies until my eyes glaze over.
    As in prostate cancer studies where this food or vitamin ingredient in a study produced 30% less prostate cancer and people who ran backwards for 50 minutes each day had 50% less prostate cancer.
    I think you know what I mean... If I added up all the right things I do.. each giving me less prostate cancer... I'd end up with 500 percent less prostate cancer.

    Anyway, If someone knows of some really well done studies that Dr. Hyman relies on for showing better outcomes for CAD patients on his style of diet, I'd like to see it. From what I know he has not done any such study himself.

    (ps also re Hyman. I think he is way over the top on selling hugely overprice vitamins and making promises about them that are not based in reality. You could easily spend several dollars each day ($100 each month) on just his supplements. Products that are far cheaper else where... if you really even need them at all. I just keep seeing dollars and dollars involved with Hyman.)

    Does he have anything free? Like where you can just go and discuss things on a forum without paying?

    3. Dr. William Davis. I have looked at him several times because he and his website seem to make big claims and give off that air of certainty that they know the way.
    Thus far I have not seen it. He may have internal records that show such, but as a outsider, I have not read anything he has published or that the gives links to to show me that if he takes 100 CAD patients and puts them on his plan, that they either halt or reverse their CAD..
    Now, I do admit that with his website being "for pay" I have not been able to see the direct exchanges between participants.
    However, I have become very skeptical of such discussion forums as they tend to be more anecdotal and filled with wishes and hopes rather than hard data.
    I'm not picking out just his site for this, it is true of almost all these dietary sites. People invest a lot in doing the diet and they want to be assured of the outcome... that they are on the right path.

    Example... on a low fat site such as Dr. McDougall runs (for free), the entire site is skewed toward saying everyone is doing good and anything else or skeptisism is viewed as destructive.

    So anyway. I'd ask for any study that Davis has or uses to give more proof of long term improvement for CAD patients.

    On a side note about Davis. He says over and over that about 80% of the patients he sees are diabetic or pre-diabetic and so much of his advice is skewed towards those with that condition and susceptibility.
    He also doesn't practice much anymore, instead making his living by writing and lecturing. He has become a one man media business.
    He was originally a follower of Dean Ornish, but....and I'm not absolutely certain about this.. he had diabetes or pre-diabetes... then he tried of find his own way to better health... found what worked for him, then started using it on patients. Ending up with his entire new way. But does he have some published record of his way being superior?

    I might throw in.. I think his entire "wheat" thing (Wheat Belly) is just a gimick and at best applies to a tiny percentage of people. Less than 10%.
    All the stuff about new age wheat vs old wheat... and on and on. I'm sorry but that is all just passing fad. The guy may have something in his original work, but he really hit a financial home run with Wheat Belly. That is his business now, far more than TrackYourPlaque.

    OK, I'm open to his proof. Something real in folks with CAD, treated for 3 to 5 years, with published results.

    (Number 4. continued into next post, as I went on too long) ---> see next post ---->
    Last edited by Otago; 02-17-2016 at 11:03 AM.

  9. #9
    (continued from prior post)


    4. Dr. Goodman
    I listened to 28 minutes of him on youtube (eldridge & company) where he goes over his basic ideas on treating people.
    Then I listened to over one hour of him having a conversation/interview with Dr. Mercola

    I think those videos allow one to get a fair overall impression of him and his ideas. Especially the Mercola video where they go on and on and on... and talking that long you don't just keep repeating your canned phrases as you do in short interviews.
    So you see what his ideas are, and where he is sure.. and where he admits certain substances are hard to measure and where belief comes into play because we don't have all the facts.

    I came away feeling he is sincere. A bit of his sincere "belief" goes into the a significant reliance on supplements. He has two or three books on them, though I don't get the idea that he is making his living off of the books or the supplements... Unlike Dr. Davis and Dr. Hyman. (Hyman is a one-man drug store with rather outrageous sales of supplements)

    So, seems a nice guy... yes. Sincere, yes. A well trained cardiologist... yes
    But does his idea on how to address existing CAD have any study of individuals over 3 to 5 years to back it up? I know he believes in it, but there are lots of things doctors believe.
    Trouble is that you have well meaning and well educated doctors saying quite opposite things.
    Now.. I must say they do say many of the same things regarding veggies, exercise, meditation.
    And I do understand this past few years of saying "we had it all wrong about fat".. but again, most of that was related to people running out and loading up on refined carbs and sugars as they replaced some of their fats intake.

    I don't know what to say about his path or recommendations. Listen to him talk about K2 and Magnesium towards the end of the hour with Mercola.

    --- I hope you do well with him and that you aren't spending a bundle of your own money for all the visits and testing.
    I think the little and big ldl particles are interesting to see, however I've been led to believe if you get your ldl very very low enough then its not so important.
    Very low meaning like 42, or 35 like mine.

    5. ) Let me add that I am also skeptical of Ornish, Esselstyn, McDougall, Fuhrman, and the others who promote the 10% low fat vegan diets.
    I watch what they say, and I note where what they say is not supported by the facts. They often engage in hyperbole.
    Mention of that has me on the bad guys list on those discussion pages when I bring it up. Those totally sold on the diet, don't like to hear any skepticism.
    They really get angry and try to get you kicked off the site.
    I won't bore you with my specific questions about some of Esselstyn's statements, but it involves his overstating and over promising the facts.
    These doctors, the low fat ones, as well as Davis and Hyman, are so invested that they are correct, they often can no longer see or read anything that contradicts what they espouse.

    A point about the "low fat" diets, the one's that are truly low fat in the Ornish tradition, by their very nature, exclude excess sugar, sodas, low fiber refined grains, cookies, cakes, and transfats. The very things that are rightly held against the horrible versions of "low fat" that the American public engaged in over the past decades.
    There are people on horrible vegan and vegetarian diets. Cotton candy and Cracker Jacks are vegan.

    One thing I would say is that I appreciate doctors and sites where they allow discussions to take place for free.
    Some places charge for everything.

    I just get the impression that some of the gurus, seem to be running a big business more than some of the others.

    OK... and me, NOW... As I've stated before, though I am very skeptical, and have been peeking at and probing at the ideas of Davis (trackyourplaque), I have not found enough to believe in him.
    For now, reading all the real studies, that have taken people for 3 to 5 years, I have to choose a path. So, for the time being I am sticking with the Ornish/Esselstyn/McDougall type of diet, because I simply can't find any solid evidence that the the other plans do anything for those with existing proven CAD.
    They might be great, but I can't just go on some guy's enthusiasm or theory. Or where you can't find out his proof unless you spend X dollars.

    I'm ready, willing, and would be eager to change to almost anything in my diet, if they could only show some proof of where it took people with CAD over 3 to 5 years.
    Again, there is also the possibility that some diets or paths may work better for different patients. In particular for those with diabetes or pre-diabetes. Perhaps the Davis plan is better for those people.

    Please send me a link to any study that might show a superior diet for those with existing heart disease. I'm not sure at this time I've even halted my progression. I may yet have a stent down the road.
    I'm thinking its about 50-50 chance at this point. I was hoping to at least wait until they perfect the new dissolving stents. Used quite often in Europe but not allowed in USA for a few more years.
    Thus far, they sound good.. even superior to DES (druge eluting stents). But you want to be sure before you have some object placed in a critical coronary artery.

    Sorry to go on and on... but for those really interested, its worth sharing our ideas. As Pratoman has said before, there are no good sites for this, which is very strange given how many people have heart disease.
    Last edited by Otago; 02-17-2016 at 11:27 AM.

  10. #10
    Otago, I've been waiting for your comments as I know you are e trembly knowledgeable about these issues.
    And thanks for the time you took to spell out your thoughts in a detailed way.
    I too am always skeptical. And I suppose, like most people, maybe am believing what I want to believe.
    The only study I've found to show success is the Ornish study. And yet, the comments I get on the Davis site are to the effect that Ornish has never pointed to anyone who had follow up calcium scores showing reversal or halt of progression.
    There are some guys on the Davis site including one who was diagnosed with a calcium score of over 3400, who have halted progression, and posted their numbers over multiple years. I don't see any reason why someone would lie on a forum about their calcium score. There sexual exploits? Sure. How much they can deadlift at the gym? Sure. But calcium score? So that interested me greatly. And yet I realize, even if true, it's a cohort of 1!

    So my eyes are wide open on this.
    I am at a point where I am so burnt out from reading studies on OC and Heart Disease, don't know how much more of it I can do. But I will continue to look for truth.
    I am thinking that I may have my next appointment with Dr Goodman, discuss the blood work, see what his plan for me would be. Then take it to my PCP/Cardiologist, whom I've had a strong relationship with, for 10 years, and share it with him, get his thoughts. Then make a decision on which path.

    A great example of how confusing this can all be to the Average layman....
    At my last visit with my PCP/Cardiologist, who was the one that started all this with an abnormal EKG and echo stress, followed by ct angio followed by cardiac catheterization and stenting, I asked him, if I decided to go to Ornish Center, would he gee me a referral. His response was, yes I would. But I think you are torturing yourself needlessly. Your LDL is down to 42, it's at therapeutic levels, stop worrying and live your life.
    And I'm just not sure if I should follow his lead, or not.
    Diagnosed at age 64 (in November, 2014), PSA 4.3
    Nov 2014 BX 3 of 12 cores positive original pathology G8. Johns Hopkins second opinion, G6
    Surgery with Dr Ash Tewari Jan 6, 2015
    Post surgical pathology, stage T2c, bilateral disease, upstaged to G7(3+4)
    5% of Prostate involved in Tumor. Organ confined, Margins, SV, lymph nodes (9) all negative, PNI positive
    PSA <.02 until (uh-oh), 2/17 .02. Then 5/17-.033, 8/17-.033, 11/17-.046, 4/18-.060, 6/18-.068, 7/18- .082, 8/18-. 078.
    Decipher score low risk, .37
    ADT/Firmagon started August 2018. SRT to start SEPT 2018. Finished SRT November 2018, Finished ADT Feb 2019
    T=7, PSA <.05

 

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